It might have been natural for rock legend Nick Cave to ask him to write the theme song for Train Dreams, even if he had no personal connection or connections with the filmmakers or cast. One of his most acclaimed albums, “Ghosteen,” dealt with the grief caused by the death of his teenage son, and even his previous and subsequent works, through his latest release “Wild God,” tend to put into perspective how we deal with the joys and sorrows of a life spent with or without loved ones.
But Cave knew the film’s star, Joel Edgerton, and he had some idea of how close the novel Train Dreams was based on to the singer-songwriter’s heart. There were still some hurdles before Cave co-wrote the theme song. Like, for example, the fact that he had little intention of entering the realm of nationally renowned film composer Bryce Dessner. And when Cave tells the story, it just happened anyway, despite his conscious intentions about the whole thing.
Variety spoke to Cave by phone while he was in London after completing tour dates with his longtime band, the Bad Seeds.
First of all, how did the request to consider the song come about? Was Bryce Dessner the first person you heard about this, or was it from (director) Clint Bentley?
First of all, I think you should know that “Train Dreams” is my favorite book of all time. When asked about books, “Train Dream” always comes up. To me, it’s like[Cormac McCarthy’s]Blood Meridian or something, it’s just the perfect piece of literature, and it’s especially powerful because it’s a novella. It’s just short and beautiful. So I was always attached to that book. I know the lead actor, Joel Edgerton – he’s Australian – and I think he just texted me and asked if I’d be interested. It was quite something because I didn’t really have time to do it. I had all kinds of anxiety about it.
Even if I loved the book, what stopped me from jumping in, other than the time factor?
I do the music myself, and the last thing anyone who has done the music for a movie wants is for the producer to come in and put a song at the end that has nothing to do with the music so they can put in a rock-ish song at the end. That happens all the time when scoring. That’s incredibly insulting. And I didn’t want to do that to Bryce. But I saw this movie and I really, really liked it. I thought they did a great job of presenting this beautiful gem of a novel. Still, I hesitated to stick my nose in Bryce’s score.
Then I watched a movie, fell asleep, and when I woke up in the morning, I had the lyrics in my head exactly as I read them, and I immediately wrote them down and loved them so much. I’ve never heard a song like that. Songs never come to mind like that. Writing songs is like pulling teeth, but it came so easily and beautifully. So I called Bryce and said, “Look, I wrote the lyrics,” and he really liked the lyrics, and I said, “But I don’t know how to turn them into a song for your movie.” Then I watched the end of the movie again and realized I could sing those lyrics over Bryce’s existing score. It was really beautiful music that played into the credits sequence. So that’s essentially what I did. I took the music he had already written and took it into the studio, chopped it up a little bit, made it more song-like, a little more formal, and sang these lyrics over it. I was really impressed with how easy everything was. I have to say that there was something very emotional, at least for me, in the sparseness of Bryce’s music with its overlapping lyrics.
So how did it get to you…
Yes, it appeared in my dream. I’m not kidding when I say this is what actually happened. Because I had always wanted to write a song, and since I was on vacation, I really didn’t want to go into the studio and write a song. However, even when I went to sleep, I still had images of the movie in my head. And a lot of what I’m talking about in this song actually relates directly to the movie and the book. Usually things like that don’t really work. Since the song actually references the movie itself, that’s definitely a recipe for disaster. But I thought that was a pretty beautiful way to sum up the whole thing.
It’s literally a song about a dream I had in a dream.
train dream.
It mentions things that aren’t in the movie, and there’s also a noticeable reference to Elvis, so I’m wondering if it’s a quote from the novel…
Yes, the Elvis thing is straight out of a book. I just remember this great scene where he (a character named Robert Granier) goes to town. This may be a little wrong, but a train passed by with this guy on it and all the girls were crazy about it. And he doesn’t know who this person is, but it’s Elvis Presley, who has this magical voice. That’s a beautiful part of the book, but not in the movie. So some of the images came from books, and others I created myself.
What resonated most with you about this book?
I mean, I’ve known it for a long time. Anyway, I really like Dennis Johnson’s writing, especially the last book he wrote, which was published after his death (The Great Sea Maiden). But what’s special about Train Dreams is that it was an ordinary life, but at the same time it was an extraordinary life on a human level. And the fact that Dennis Johnson writes about it in kind of plain language… there’s so much humility in his words that this story suddenly becomes this story of tragic sadness. It’s a weird little episode where he returns to his wife and goes back to his job as a lumberman, and what he sees and the strange things that go on. And when he returns, she is no longer there, and his life becomes just a strange, dream-like and sad situation. The whole idea of what this book is actually about, which is a comment on grief and mortality, really hits home.
That’s something you’ve worked on quite a lot in your work. One of the reasons why so many people relate to your recent work is because we’ve been working on those things ourselves and we’re interested in how you handle them. So it’s interesting that there is continuity in this project.
Well, I’ve been through something similar and it affects everything I do. But that’s not what I’m trying to write about. It means that my sons’ presence is infused into everything I write. I find it very difficult to separate myself from that. It’s getting easier, but it was still very difficult. So I’ve read “Train Dreams” many times over the years, and obviously it has a different force than what happened in my own personal life. There’s something about the way he writes about grief that you don’t even realize it’s about grief until near the end when you think, “Okay, this is what this book is actually about.” There was something that moved me so deeply that I can’t express it in words. It’s an ordinary life, but at the same time it’s a life full of surprises. What is our life? And the movie recreates it beautifully.
In the song, you write about “strange and wonderful things I’ve seen measured in truth” and then talk about “a tendency to feel pain.” You’ve probably tried to strike that balance in much of your writing.
Well, like this book, it summarizes all of this very lightly. Neither the movie nor the book is morbid. There is something life-affirming about this devastating story. That’s the beautiful paradox of grief, really.
Were you nervous about seeing the movie itself because this book was so important to you?
Yes, I went into it with a fair amount of trepidation, but it really drew me in. It is what it is. I think it’s completely different from the book. Another (variation) of the major artwork associated with this book has also come out: a reading of “Train Dreams” by Will Patton, an audiobook. I recommend audiobooks to everyone as the most beautiful reading of a great book. However, I think this book is a little quirky. I think you could say that there’s a certain playful element to the book, and the movie is more serious about grief. But I think they’re both taking this subject very lightly.
Literally, there are dreams in books and movies, and he incorporates them into his lyrics, talking about “crazy dreams that last for hours.” Do you spend a lot of time thinking about how we process loss or relive things through dreams etc.?
I don’t dream… You know, my wife dreams all the time, and it’s an active part of her existence, her dreams. Every morning when she woke up, she said, “Oh, I had this dream last night.” I don’t have that. You could say I’m dreaming through her. And many of her dreams are very similar to the dreams in this song. You know, they’re about our son, very, very beautiful, very simple, and we feel very much that he found us and is with us for a while through Susie. It’s very beautiful, overall. I personally don’t dream, but we have a very strong relationship with dreams. I’m so jealous.
Train Dreams – (Photo) Joel Edgerton as Robert Greiner. Cr: Netflix © 2025
Provided by Netflix
Has this affected your feelings about collaboration at all?
I really like Bryce’s score, and I realized that while watching Train Dreams, so I didn’t want to say too much about it. But we found a way to do it without changing the feel of the score at all. In a way, at least to me, it feels like the score is moving towards the song. It’s mainly because of his beautiful music. Usually I just work with the people I work with, Warren Ellis and the Bad Seeds. I rarely collaborate with anyone outside of my very close circle. So it was a strange and new thing for me to step out of my comfort zone a little bit and do something with someone else. It was very nice.
Apart from this song, this year has been a good or fruitful season for you. Especially when it comes to things that people are currently watching more overseas than they are in the U.S., such as the “Veiled World” special, and the series “The Death of Bunny Monro” and its soundtrack. They are well reviewed.
Well, “The Death of Bunny Monro” did really well. People have spent about 20 years trying to make it happen. I wrote it (the novel) 20 years ago, so it’s amazing to see it aired on TV. This is a challenging series and I think Sky was pretty brave in allowing it to be that way.
We will be touring around Australia and New Zealand until August next year. It might be greedy for America to want you to return to America immediately after you just toured with the Bad Seeds in 2024. But are there any plans to return to America, or is it too far away to speculate?
myself? Not in a band, but yes, I am (for solo shows). We haven’t announced it, but yes, we’re doing some things.
